Class discussion for "Gaming Homer" online course

[Roger Travis]

Now let's see if I can get this thing linked up on HuskyCT. . .

[Joanne Faust]

Ok to start, my feelings basically mirror a little bit of everybody. First off, I must admit I have never read the Illiad and therefore as I read the assigned chapters, I felt it was never ending blood and gore. I did not see the point. As for the Odyssey, I have read it many times by many translators and loved the NBC movie adaptation. When Odysseus slayed the suitors, I was cheering!

With that said, I never thought about the concepts that Prof. Travis is introducing. It began with the bard and in media res and now aristeia. After watching the video lectures and then relating it back to the Illiad and Odyssey passages I see the need for the fights....not necessarily all the blood and gore though. Diomedes needed to prove himself, Patroclus bit off more than he could chew in armor that was not his own, and Odyssesus needed to reclaim his kingdom. As far as Odyssesus not making himself known as he killed the suitors, I always felt that he was saying that they were so low on the totem pole that they did not deserve to know who had killed them.

Aristeia in the video games. Let's see, in Penguin, I think the only status to be achieved here is the most happening igloo for a party and a fantastic wardrobe to boot. The mini-games may be repitious, but I keep striving to increase to further levels and the most fish I could catch. Runescape has been more challenging for me. As I stated before, I am not good at these games. So far, I have increased levels that do not require battles. Such as wood cutting and fire making. The only thing I feel safe in fighting are the men/women NPC and the cows or chickens. It will difficult to reach aristeia at the rate I'm going.

[Joanne Faust]

In response to Dan's response about the South Park episode the fact they needed to team up to defeat the boss shows, in my opinion, that aristeia is not only a single glory, but can be for more than one person. Another example, which this is dating me, but Voltron, I think is a good example of epic battles, team work, and aristeia. Separately, the five lions had their own strengths, but could not prevail on their own, but together, they were better and stronger and their aristeia was written. When the feet was accomplished and Lotar and the witch were defeated, the city celebrated not one, but all of them.

Dan Benitez said:

I really like your idea of the aristeia in the video games. I also agree that the aristeia can be more than just a boss battle. Although there are many games where the aristeia is given to you as a straight boss battle, I agree with the idea of creating your own aristeia throughout the gameplay through battling and level grinding. The whole aristeia concept reminds me of the WoW episode of South Park. The kids start playing warcraft, and then a player comes along and starts killing everyone. No one can stop him because his level is so high, anyone who signs on and stands up to him is easily overkilled. The player was so powerful that it looked like it could be the end of the world.....of warcraft. Stan, Kyle, Cartman and Kenny hide in the forest and level grind by killing wild boars to increase their level in hopes of defeating the unknown player. The aristeia comes when they finally challenge the player. He is still too strong for them until they use the "sword of a thousand souls," and defeat him. There is obviously more to the episode than my little summary, but if you watch it, youll find it a great example of aristeia.
Alex Meeske said:

It seems to me that the concept of aristeia can be applied to video games in more contexts than just the "boss fight." I have no trouble visualizing the boss fight as a character's finest moments, nor do I have problems seeing "grinding" as the baseline that makes the aristeia so extraordinary. However, I think that the aristeia can come from within basic battle/monotonous tasks as well as in a cataclysmic face-off.

Take my recent foray into the vast daedroth-filled wasteland of Oblivion for example. After annoyingly slaughtering goblin after goblin in Cyrodiil (a continent of the Elder Scrolls series), I had attained the rank of Master of Marksman. This rank granted my character a high chance to paralyze his opponent upon letting loose a well-aimed arrow. Now I think that this ability has given me the chance to invoke an aristeia myself, so I took it upon myself to conduct an experiment.

In Oblivion, my character was charged with the task of closing the gate to Oblivion (basically Hell). So, I equipped my dagger (and my blade skill is not very high) and started hacking away at scamps and demons and the like. That is, until I reached the top of the tower, where I was swarmed by minions of the evil Mehrunes Dagon. It was at this point that I decided to equip my bow, and with dextrous fingers paralyzed and then killed all the demons, leaving my character standing alone, victorious.

What I'm trying to say is that although many games provide aristeiai that you cannot avoid performing (e.g. the final boss battle in Ocarina of Time), there are certainly opportunities for the gamer to make his/her own aristeiai. I suppose this hints at a dual bardic role played by both the gamer and the game developer. While there are only so many pre-packaged adventures and boss battles (i.e. aristeia contributed by the game developer), there are myriad situations a gamer might find themselves in where their character exhibits a particular moment of excellence. In a racing game, for example, a corresponding aristeia might be a turbo boost that propels the character many laps ahead of all of his/her competitors. This boost could be invoked at any time, but there are only so many boss races.

I think an interesting consequence of these in-game capabilities is that the aristeiai give us gamers (as an audience) something to look forward to. Everyone has been discussing how boring a game would be without grinding, but of course there would be absolutely no game if it only consisted of grinding (*cough* Left4Dead). In bardic songs, I'll bet the aristeiai where the points during which the people in the audience had their eyes glued to the bard and were sitting on the edge of their seats. Whether the aristeiai in question are battle related or not, I think they are essential components of the song and of the game that help to propel the narrative.

[andybear]

I have played many "grinding" video games in my day and have not really considered the significance or meaning of it at all. I always figured it was necessary filler time and means for gaining exp before running into a boss or unique character of some sort. I can imagine what the Iliad is trying to say as a hero like Diomedes and Aeneas would surely have had to cut through countless nonames before confronting one another. This scenario is apparent in all sorts of video games as well as movies today. Han Solo had to toss numerous nobodies into the pit of Zarlak (while suffering from hibernation sickness) before he could have a go at Bobba. Or in a game such as resident evil 4 you have to blast youre way past simple zombies before you can take on a big boss which takes a few more shots to the head to kill. These less important characters are imperative to setting up ones aresteia. If one did not see a character mow down regulars then they would have no basis for comparing an epic boss battle. Bosses usually take much longer to die and also usually strike back. Game designers want bosses to be challenging to ensure that youre moment of glory is truly great upon defeating them. Likewise, when a hero in the Iliad makes an especially important kill, the barb wants you to feel the excitement of that battle, as well as the glory of the victory.

[MattSlack]

Adam Zajac said:

So to me, grinding in video games serves two purposes. Firstly it gives the player a change to learn and develop new skills that are vital in progressing in the game, otherwise you would stand little chance against any strong boss type characters, much in the same way how a soldier would be unlikely to be a hero in battle without training and war experience. Secondly, to agree with Robert, It makes the game worth playing in a way. How much fun could you have in a game in which you start off at a high level of skill and only proceed to fight boss characters with little chance to hone your skills? I always find 2nd playthroughs in games where you keep all your stats and equipment from previous playthroughs much less fun because it lacks the grind of learning a developing. In Dead Space for instance I can now kill enemies with one hit from fully upgraded weaponry and survive their onslaughts with my level 6 suit. I no longer feel like a hero, but a god. Maybe in Homeric epics thats what separates mortal warrior heroes from their divine counterparts. The gods always experience glory in battle and never have to work for it. Mortals need to work for it and also avoid dying. Something that as you're "grinding" is always present.

Yeah, I think that the aristeia-as-level-grinding scenario we're discussing holds for all games, not just RPG's. I've been replaying GTA3 lately and there are a number of aspects of that game that seem to align with this concept. The player may not be gaining "levels" in the RPG-specific sense of the word, but she/he still practices vital game skills and builds their clout and skills as one would in an RPG. Specifically, the Taxi/Firefighter/Ambulance/Vigilante missions are what I had in mind. They allow the player to flesh out his/her gaming experience by allowing them better practice getting to know the city and becoming better drivers, which helps in the main story missions.

With this GTA discussion in mind I think this coincides with your point about the aristeia allowing the character to progress in the game. The driving skills developed certainly help in later missions and all throughout the game and the weapons skills developed in the vigilante missions help in the later game. The latter half of the game would be a much harder game had the player not been given chances to increase their skills outside of the main story missions. I think this is a key concept in understanding just what the point of level grinding is. Sometimes it may seem repetitive and irritating, but in some cases it can be vital to developing skills crucial to the latter parts of the game.

[Kevin Ballestrini]

Roger Travis said:

Kevin, what about all of the Odyssean material that says that Odysseus has to get beyond the very idea of kleos? Cf. Vernant's "The Refusal of Odysseus" in the Schein volume we read in 3241. IMHO the Odyssey bards really were critiquing the very basis of their tradition.

Without a doubt the Odyssey bards were critiquing the tradition. But, because they were critiquing it, doesn't mean they have to abandon it completely. The first Scream movie came to mind as a good example of this; it does a very good, imho, job of displaying a confident grasp of the horror movie genre and all of its pitfalls. It constantly critiques the very basis for scary movies but, ultimately, it is one itself.

Much in the same way, Odysseus' aristeia flies in the face of the very nature of the traditional aristeia with its outlandish (yet authentic) death scenes. It stands to critique the tradition but at the same time, I can't ignore the fact that he does spare the bard. There's no reason for him to spare the bard, who has been wasting up his wealth just like everyone else, other than to allow him to go forward and tell the story of how Odysseus defeated the suitors. Thus the aristeia, while seeming to be unauthentic, still fills the role of augmenting the kleos of Odysseus since ultimately the story will be told over and over again. There's no way that Odysseus is trying to take the spotlight off of himself; everything that Odysseus does is to set up for the spotlight to shine directly on him. Odysseus can't get past the whole kleos thing, as Vernant wants to argue, but instead he understands it so well that he is able to manipulate it in whatever way he needs to.

[Erika T]

I really enjoyed the lectures in Mod. 3, and not just because of the inspirational mont music in video 4. But I think I would like to enterpret the role of gear in a slightly different way. I agree with professor Travis about the gear being an expression of honor and a way of identifing specific skills. In addition to that however, I feel that gear can be used to interpret a characters personality as well. In gaming, the user generally gets to choose which pieces of gear they yield as well as which peices of gear they aim to be able to yield. Individual games work to reach skill levels that can yeild specific pieces of gear and choose certain peices over others because of the advatages they seek. Therefore, the time of gear a player yields can represent what that character deems as important qualities to that particular player. Which leads me to wonder what is it about Achilles' personality that makes him so masterful of the spear and the same with Odysseus' and his bow? Maybe I'm just reaching.

[Dan Emmons]

I find the parallel between gear in video games and in epics to be surprisingly strong. When Patroclus borrows Achilleus' armor for the aristeia, he does it partly to gain some sort of advantage in battle, but the main reason he uses the armor is for the glory associated with it. Because the soldiers he will fight with will believe him to be a better warrior. The quality of the gear corresponds directly to Patroclus' prowess in battle. This is why he cannot take the great spear. Because he does not have enough skill to be quite as good a warrior as Achilleus, that lack is reflected in his gear choices. I find the parallel between this limit and the level restriction on most gear to be very compelling.

[Samantha Lee]

I definitely liked the presentation of gear in this section. Though I would like to propose that the gear we give our characters are an ideal representation of ourselves. That is, on some level, we would love to be that person who can defend himself with a kick ass sword, or be that person who can earn that kick ass sword. OR, it could be the game designer's method of showing us the ideal gamer through the gear. A gamer doesn't deserve a kick ass weapon, but the ideal gamer is the model for the gamer. So as we play our game and get better gear with more damage per second, we are trying to attain a better self for ourselves... We want to be that better gamer because in some way, it proves that we are a better person, a deserving of great things. The problem, though, is when this perception of greatness through game gear alters the perception of real life. We may become the ideal gamer, but we (arguably) are not ideal people, nor can we become ideal people. But that doesn't mean we stop being the best person we can. Likewise, the bards must have taken some pride in recalling gear and what they represented. (But maybe this argument doesn't fit with Odysseus' bow and the subsequent slaughter of the suitors.)

[Karen Zook]

Like so much else about MMORPGs, I find the interrelated roles of gear as carrot and stick to be both interesting and frustrating. My example, as always, is from RuneScape (I think I need to start looking into LoTR, though). Over the weekend my character wandered all the way over to the Barbarian Outpost, and I somehow ended up in some hut with a NPC who wanted to teach me about barbarian fishing methods. He gave me a heavy-duty fishing rod--great!--but I needed a fishing level of 40-something to use it. Now, in the more centralized areas of the landscape, my current 30-something level serves me very well. I don't believe, in fact, that there's anything over there I'm not able to catch, and anyway it's imaginary fishing, not exactly thrilling. But now I'm carrying around this heavy-duty fishing rod, and I end up feeling compelled to level up my fishing skill in order to use it.

I was actually really relieved at the comment in the module lecture addressing the issue of why anyone would care about this honor economy. That's something I've been running up against all semester; since I don't come from much of a gaming background, I keep finding myself caring about something like this and then questioning why. I imagine that will take some time to go away.

This isn't particularly related to the module, but it's something that came to mind in watching the fellowship hunt in the lecture. I've turned off my chat options in RuneScape as a defensive measure--I have limited patience for the, if I can put it this way, insult culture I've been warned about in some WoW or XBox Live settings. Am I missing out on an essential element of the game by isolating my character in this way, or would it just be distracting and/or infuriating?

[MattSlack]

Karen Zook said:

Like so much else about MMORPGs, I find the interrelated roles of gear as carrot and stick to be both interesting and frustrating. My example, as always, is from RuneScape (I think I need to start looking into LoTR, though). Over the weekend my character wandered all the way over to the Barbarian Outpost, and I somehow ended up in some hut with a NPC who wanted to teach me about barbarian fishing methods. He gave me a heavy-duty fishing rod--great!--but I needed a fishing level of 40-something to use it. Now, in the more centralized areas of the landscape, my current 30-something level serves me very well. I don't believe, in fact, that there's anything over there I'm not able to catch, and anyway it's imaginary fishing, not exactly thrilling. But now I'm carrying around this heavy-duty fishing rod, and I end up feeling compelled to level up my fishing skill in order to use it.

I really like the way you conceptualize gear as a carrot and stick kinda thing. I've noticed this myself on and off in some games, Diablo 2 comes to mind for me anyway, and never really put it together like this until i read your post. I've had a really similar experience in Diablo 2 when I was leveling my barbarian and came across an incredibly powerful Great Axe which I couldn't use until I was Level 45 or something, but of course I had to keep playing until I could use the axe since it had a huge strength modifier on it, making my damage-dealt shoot through the roof.

I haven't seen any analog for this specifically in the epics we've been reading, but I think Prof. Travis' point concerning Achilleus' spear is particularly enlightening as to the way gear is integral to the workings of the epic. The fact that he is the only warrior who can wield it is one of the most telling facts about him that attest to his greatness. I think this is a more effective means of conveying how grand of a warrior he is than just a physical description or even an aristeia-like description of his deeds would be.

[Kevin Ballestrini]

Great posts on gear, especially the 'carrot on a stick', Karen.

It seems like we've had a difficult time equating gear in MMOs with the gear in the Iliad. I'm going to go through one more aspect of MMO gear that we can see actually happen inside of the epic story. Most high level, end-game, gear has what is known as "set bonuses" for having a certain number of pieces to complete the set of armour. Usually the buffs that the set bonus provides increases in status or defenses that make you a "better" hero for having this armour. So it becomes the driving force to obtaining more set pieces because it would involve doing even more heroic deeds to get them. The set pieces usually require a significant amount of work to obtain. For example, the end-game Captain's armour in LotRO provides a huge bonus to "Acid Defense" with 3 pieces equipped, bonuses to might with 4 pieces, etc.

So where does this happen in epic? Well, I'm going to argue that Achilleus' first set of armour provides a significant set bonus to those that equip it. Looking at when Hektor decides to put on the armour, after defeating Patroklos, there are a couple of very interesting lines:
"The armour was fitted to Hektor's skin, and Ares the dangerous war god entered him, so that the inward body was packed full of force and fighting strength. He went onward calling in a great voice to his renowned companions in arms, and figured before them flaming in the battle gear of great-hearted Peleion." (Il 17.210)

Like MMO armour, if I had to guess, the set bonus that Hektor just received was a + to Might, maybe a + to Morale, and its clear that he also got an extra "effect" for having the set equipped. In LotRo there is a noticeable graphics effect that lets you know, and everyone around you know, that you've just received a set bonus. Hektor's flaming appearance lets all the Trojans know that he's got some really awesome gear with really awesome set bonuses.

[Roger Travis]

Great, great point about the set bonus!

I guess I'm not sure what you mean about the difficult time equating the gear, Kev--seems like everybody's finding different parallels, which adds up to a lot of analogy, even if the analogy is fairly loose in the end.

Karen, the quality of the chat depends greatly on the game. If you do play LOTRO, you'll find that you want to have chat turned on! More importantly, there are different channels of chat, and if you're in a group the group will have its own channel that you can turn on and still not see what the rest of the world is saying.