Class discussion for "Gaming Homer" online course

[Roger Travis]

Now let's see if I can get this thing linked up on HuskyCT. . .

[Adam Zajac]

I do see the similarities in games such as the Metal Gear series to the Bardic occasion, but I still feel that they have more in common with modern literature and movies (some would argue that the MGS games is essentially a movie with some gameplay thrown in). But my view is that it depends on what level you want to examine a game determines its relationship. The way I see it and I think this is what Dr. Travis is getting at is that the actual gameplay is the act of storytelling. The main story line, say in Metal Gear Solid 4 is analogous to the overall theme of the story sung by the bards while the actual gameplay is analogous to the retelling of the story. I may have been a little less clear then I wanted to in my last post so I just wanted to clarify my thoughts.

[MattSlack]

To Dan and Andrea, yeah I'm beginning to see it more clearly now. I guess as an English major I'm a little to hung up on focusing purely on narrative stories and I wasn't really thinking about games with the right frame of mind. I especially like Dan's point about how one player games can still be a social experience; I had never thought about it in that light before but it makes more sense to me now that you guys brought that up.

I'll also bring up LittleBigPlanet as well, having played it quite a bit last semester, this game melds nicely with the idea of themes being recombined and remixed to add flavor to a bardic tale. In that the skill set (i.e. jumping, grabbing items, etc.) is fairly easy to pick up and begin using but can then be used in almost countless ways to complete the various levels. This game also goes one step further in that the level designer allows the player to become even more involved by taking building blocks of the world itself and reusing them to allow the player to create her own epic tales themselves and then allow themselves or others the chance to 'retell' their tale.

Definitely some enlightening discussions going on here, thanks for helping me see the idea more clearly guys!

[Clinton Lester]

Glenn Furst said:

I'm still trying to get comfortable with Runescape. The game has a language that must be learned in order to tell a better story as an aspiring bard must get comfortable with language to tell a captivating epic. Large amounts of time must be devoted to repetition and practice before any kind of improvisation comes as second nature. I was awestruck picturing a bard singing hundreds or thousands of lines alongside his gusle. I'm not sure if everyone else's version of The Singer of Tales came with an audio cd, but mine did and hearing it really helped. As with gamers, bards seem to function almost in a trance. A bard loses himself in the story. It is difficult for him to explain what he is doing, he just does it.

You brought up points that instantly caused flash backs to my gaming experiences in the past. Most people that consider themselves avid gamers will be able to attest to some moment when playing a game they had entered what I call the “zone”. The “zone” being when playing a game you are no longer truly conscious of the actions you are doing, your just acting based on instincts and previous experience. I truly believe this is how it must feel for an experienced bard when he is sing. That based on “formulas” and “themes” that the bard has been introduced to over time he no longer actively thinks about each specific detail once he has begun singing. As he sings the song fills in itself; because with the amount of practice and technique that the singer has at this point composing a song is more than likely instinctive. Just like when playing say a FPS game the player does not have to actively think I need to move the crosshair to this point on the screen and then another point. The player just reacts based on what he has experienced previously.

Kevin Ballestrini said:

I noticed that there are a lot of those conventions that I take for granted that she couldn't figure out on her own while she was playing through Lego Star Wars. Often she would ask, after my assistance, "How would I have known to do that?" I didn't have a real solid explanation other than, "I'm not sure, that's just how it is done in video games." I never really thought too much about that idea until your post here.

I believe this is just a build on my previous statement. Just as the bards could not correctly explain how they practice and memorize a song or even explain in detail the songs themselves; neither can a person who is an experienced gamer explain why they decided to look in a certain spot or travel down a certain path. The decisions that are made are based on those gaming “themes” and “formulas” that the player has experienced before. They know that in certain types of adventure games that hidden treasure can be found on roofs or tree-tops. So the player is inclined to try that when they play those types of games because it is a “theme” that is common. Just like bards know that when they tell a story there are certain elements that need to be present, because it is the common appearance of a story (An oversimplified example: A party is taking place, a messenger comes, a message is sent, an army and heroes are gathered, a battle occurs.) It is the same as the player knowing to look on the roofs.

[Clinton Lester]

Mike Stamatis said:

Now, in KotOR and in The Iliad, we are next introduced to characters that have a history and a reputation (Achilleus as the strongest of the Achaians, hero of KotOR as having an elite combat reputation). In Fallout 3, however, our introduction to the main character is actually the character's birth. We, as the players, are being born into the world of the war-torn D.C. We have no pre-existing personality, no accomplished feats, nothing but a mother and a father. This enables the gamer to become entranced with his character. As bards, we are given a character with a clean slate, so-to-speak, on which to write and compose. There are plenty of other absolutely excellent examples in Fallout 3's gameplay that can be related to the telling of epics, however as this is a post exclusively relating to in media res, I'll save those for later.

I actually just finished playing Fallout 3 and found this to be a great contrast of ways to experience “in medias res”. My answer to your question about whether Homer would have been more effective with blank slate characters, would have to be at the time I think it was the only way to effectively tell the story. We for good or bad happen to live in a country and society that has no overall cultural heroes or figures, at least not ones that could unite as did those of ancient Greece. When you have a country that is for the most part all one people I believe it is easier to make characters that can keep the interest of your audience, a Greek hero for a Greek audience. I think that without these pre-designed characters the audience would not really be able to connect to the story. It would have seem to foreign to them. Now in our current society I do not believe that the pre-designed characters are really effective at all. People are to diverse today that an American hero does not work for an American audience because it is impossible to define American. So game developers I believe are forced to create blank slate that the player can make their own just so they do not isolate any particular demographic. That is why games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, most MMORPGs, etc. have characters that we design to be who we want them to be otherwise they would have a story that is to focused.
So just to sum up, if bards did not use characters that were familiar to the audience the listeners would feel out of the loop and now if designers create games with a specific character type they isolate possible players.

[Warren Nesteruk]

Do our interview questions belong in this thread as well?

[Ben Beaudry]

I must complete everything to beat a game. If I missed something, I didn't beat it. Not like that matters, but I know a lot of people who think they're gamers because they beat a lot of games. Not if this bard has anything to say about it. Epics never die, that's why we're still playing them. And if you're going to immerse yourself, you can't skip the storyline, otherwise it doesn't count. The Fable franchise is most overlooked. The game's too short. It's like a watered down Oblivion. I beat the game in a day! And so on. This annoys me. I've played Fable more than any other game I have ever played. I too, had a Roger Travis epiphany. Why do I love this game so much? Why is it so important to me? Why do I feel satisfied when I do the right thing? It is because I get to be the bard. I make my story, my hero. I can be Achilles.

[Jake]

Hi All,

There's two things I wanted to comment on. First, I wanted to bring back the discussion of Fallout 3 and it being a good example of in media res. Someone had made the argument that "While the point-allocation-attribute system is inventive, it doesn't seem to get at the core of real storytelling. No bard would be able to say "and then the great warrior raised his strength stat to wield the dolomite sword!"" I disagree with this, and the notion that Fallout 3 is not a good example of in media res. The infant segment of the game serves the purpose of character creation and a little bit of story telling - you find out the mother dies giving birth to you, and you're given a few clues while wandering around in the room after the flash forward. Selecting your character attributes aren't really part of any sort of game/story interaction - everything pauses and you make your choices. I think of everything before the following birthday party as part of an extended introduction that is also functional in letting you choose your core attributes.

Moving away from the idea of in media res, I'd also like to say I think Fallout 3 may be on of the best example of flexibile story-telling I've ever experienced. There is so much cause and effect in the game depending on your different choices - and it's not like most games where you can do one thing or the other and it goes on of two ways that have very little effect overall. Everything you do matters, and it creates an excellent framework with which to interact with the overall story. I guess this is why it's the first game in a very long time to hold my attention long enough to complete it.

I'd also like to comment on the idea of MMORPG's and how they relate to the bardic tradition versus a single player RPG. In a single player RPG, one has a given set of formulas and themes to work with. While they change the story and the game is never the same way twice, the formulas and themes remain the same. This seems more analagous to the bardic tradition than MMORPGs. In MMORPG's, you have the same formulas and themes that are programmed into the game, but I don't know how one fits the other players into this. They are less predictable, and because the player has no control over what impact they make on his own story, the "bard" cannot quite effect the outcome in the same way. I thought this was in interesting distinction.

[Ben Beaudry]

Gaming is the conduit of the future epic.

MattSlack, you are not a jerk. It can seem like a stretch, but it can be argued just the same. Some games more than others, and as Yvonne said, it depends on the gamer, i.e. what the gamer thinks or feels is relevant. Don't get discouraged, there are other games. FPS brought gaming mainstream, but few are good because story comes second. Halo (all), Gears of War (both), Bioshock, Half-Life (both), Resident Evil 4, and Metroid Prime (all) are among the best I've ever played. IMHO, Metroid Prime is better than Halo. But the Gamecube was dismissed as a toy kids play with.

The story of a game is most important, it determines the gameplay. If the story is well thought out, the gameplay should reflect that. This is what makes Fable perfect, it has the best story; one analogous to the bard's song. And the song is never the same. As an English/philosophy major and a gamer, I tend to be harsh because I expect so much. If you have a Playstation 2, there are many reasonably priced games to counteract the shovelware. ICO, Shadow of Colossus, Okami, Fatal Frame (all), Kingdom Hearts (all), Odin Sphere, God of War (all), Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks, Devil May Cry (all), Prince of Persia (all), and Beyond Good and Evil are some my favorites.

Lastly, can we please stick to the Professor's request for brevity, some of these posts are too long! Remember gamers have short attention spans.

[Roger Travis]

Well, I like reading the long posts, I have to say! I just wanted to make sure that people felt like they could contribute even if they only have 100 words of contribution to make. Part of what this course is about is trying to destroy the misconceptions about gamers and things like short attention spans!

[Ben Beaudry]

Roger Travis said:

Well, I like reading the long posts, I have to say! I just wanted to make sure that people felt like they could contribute even if they only have 100 words of contribution to make. Part of what this course is about is trying to destroy the misconceptions about gamers and things like short attention spans!

Sorry, I should have said I have a short attention span.

[Samantha Lee]

I’ve gotten here a little late and there’s a lot to go through, but I’ll try my best.

I had not given much thought to the in medias res situation of the bardic occasion or RPG games, though I’m not so sure I agree with Warren that there are necessarily “better” in medias res. It is nice of the Homeric bards to go back (in books 8 and 9) and explain the adventures of Odysseus leading up to his meeting with the Phaiacians, it provides the reader some more sympathy to Odysseus’s desire for his. It works on the three basics Warren pointed out: it is a large presentation of information, it fulfills the motivation (of the Phaiacians) to want to learn more information and the Phaiacians ask for the information.

However, in Runescape, there is no grand explanation of the in medias res, it is not essential to the storyline (for now anyway). The character enters the world of Runescape with limited information and skills (as if it were a baby if not for the clearly adult form the character takes). The character will encounter other characters in the gaming world and then have missions to complete. Those missions tend to come with some sort of back-story as to why a particular mission needs to be completed (ie – getting flour, eggs and milk to make a cake for the prince). The back-story is a purely narrative way to perpetuate the desire of the gamer to continue the narrative that is the RPG game. There is no large presentation of information, nor does the gamer fulfill the motivation of wanting to learn more information (we just get gold coins). However, the character does go off and complete the mission, learning a little more about the world of Runescape, it does not lend meaning to the existence of the character (other than distracting me from whatever else I should be doing ie-homework). Though, like Randy said, every time I gain a level, I have pride in it and so I am more motivated to keep on playing to earn the notoriety of having “lvl 2” flash in the top left corner when another player’s cursor hovers over my character deciding whether or not they’d like to mug me.

As for kleos, I’ll just have to agree with what everyone else has said about working and building towards it with completed missions and all. And like Erika, I don’t felt like there’s much of a story line in Club Penguin. But I think by actually becoming “friends” with other characters in Club Penguin would help with the movement towards becoming an important penguin in Club Penguin.

[Megan Wenker]

I have to say I agree with Karen and Erika in feeling a bit overwhelmed so far! Not being an experienced gamer, I feel very aimless in wandering around the worlds of Runescape and Club Penguin. I'm sure, as you've all been saying, once you really understand the "formulas" of these games, you can see that the smaller mini-games, or quests, are there as a way to build your character and kleos. I'll have to try thinking of them in terms of this build-up, rather than as unrelated, individual cycles within themselves. Although, that is also the way I have always thought of Odysseus' story of his adventures. His adventures build his kleos, and explain his past, but have always seemed very episodic to me, as if they could be put in any particular order and do not really lead one into another. So, I guess I feel a bit like a young bard in the first phase of his learning, thrust forward and forced to play before an audience! So I hope you'll bear with me.

I agree with the importance of games beginning in medias res to how the player connects with them. And, not ever having played it, I'm fascinated by what you guys are saying about Fallout 3. It seems to combine the effect of beginning in medias res with flexible game playing in a really cool way. But when it comes to relating this stuff to Club Penguin and Runescape, I'm not sure I get it. I agree that you could call Club Penguin a story, but it's a story where nothing much is really happening, except penguins going about their daily lives. Once you introduce your own penguin, it becomes for you, as the bard, the story of your penguin's growing kleos in this world. However, it seems to me that like with Fallout 3, my character was born when I signed in to play for the first time. Ronon Dexx (my penguin) was not wandering around the world before that. So how is it that Club Penguin is beginning in medias res? To me, nothing has really happened in the backstory, which may lend itself to the slightly aimless feeling I get wandering around the world.