Class discussion for "Gaming Homer" online course

[Roger Travis]

Now let's see if I can get this thing linked up on HuskyCT. . .

[Mike Stamatis]

I haven't had time to read some of the most recent posts, whew, I'll have to catch up this weekend!

[Erika T]

In understanding what aristeia is and how it is used in the Homeric epics, it seems like it can allow us to understand who these works were originally or predominantly composed for. In the case of the Iliad, the aristeia emphasize what it takes to make an ideal warrior and soldier. Like what professor Travis said in the video lectures, the aristeia evolved from and separated from the simple 'Battle Books.' To me implies that it was originally written for soldiers and then possibly used as a tool to teach not just the violence of battle, but also to subtly impart the personal characteristics and vertues that made a truely great soldier during that time. Just like Club penguin teaches what it means to be a good, moral citizen while playing games and interacting with others, thereby disguising the learning through a form of entertainment.

[Warren Nesteruk]

This second module really blew me out of the water so to speak, and this nice little package in "aristeia" is not little at all. I apologize now for the length of my post, but I really feel like I have a lot to say, both about the epic and our modern interpretation within video games.

The first thing that struck me about the concept of aristeia was how many times I had thought "this is getting so boring" while I read the Iliad my first time through, in regards to the repetitive killing and slayings. I mean, the generic formula was X killed Y and [insert gore here]. Over and over and over and over again. I never had an appreciation for this because I did not realize it as a necessity.

Now that I look back on it, all of the killing which leads up the the final culmination, whether that be the scenes of Diomedes, Patroclus/Hector, the rage of Achilles ... none of these scenes would have been nearly as entertaining if there was not some expense to get there. I know this is a random analogy, but every child at christmas would love to get their presents a week ahead of time, but the fact that they must wait that week makes the gifts that much better. I feel this is identical with the aristeia, and the necessity to build the character whether it be based on killing, a penguin catching catching coffe bags, etc ... makes the reward, the excellence, in the end, far more worthwhile. What good would it be to open a book and read "Achilles killed Hector" within the first chapter? Without the grinding of the Achaeans? How much of a hero would he be then? Excellence requires investment.

Of a particular interest to me was your counter aristeia when Odysseus slays the suitors. I completely agree with you that his secretive tactics are not in any way conventional to the mold that we understand, and I also agree with you that the suitors are far less powerful (and excellent) than the men dying to capture/defend Troy. I am going to suggest that maybe Odysseus was being sarcastic when he makes the comment on basically not being secretive, because he feels the men are not deserving of his aristeia. It is his sucker punch of saying "Oh sure I am being SO upfront with these MIGHTY warriors, god give me strength!" ... before he slaughters them like cattle. I do not think Odysseus wants his excellence to be based upon the slaying of a bunch of mere suitors, so he does not approach them like they are worthy opponents. And then, Ironically (this word keeps popping up) the very fact that he is not willing to allow these men and their deaths to define him and his aristeia, actually makes him have ... greater excellence.

What im trying to say is this. Imagine if you were able to just say "Yeah ya know, I came home from a long day at work, and there were like 15 burglars in my house trying to get to my wife. I just killed them all and saved her. But it wasn't that big of a deal, you should have seen what I did earlier today!"

Pardon my language, but the irony and the way he doesn't honorably include them in his excellence, is the proverbial bad ass. The fact that Odysseus does NOT approach them like noble opponents, that he does not want his defining glory from this struggle, only makes him that much more of a hero based on his previous trials. That was my take away, I will be happy to see if anyone else thinks this.

[Dan Emmons]

The aristeia is a part of storytelling that glorifies a hero that engages in brutal battle, conquering legions of men, before engaging in one, climactic battle. This aristeia seems to represent the paramount of glory for a Greek hero, their time of extreme battle prowess where they slay countless enemies. These particular battles are the focal points of the story, the main action, if you will. They always lead to some critical point in the epic. The aristeia of Diomedes eventually leads to Achilles reentering the fight, which leads to Achilles’ own aristeia, which constitutes the climax of The Illiad. For these Greek epics, the aristeia is one of the most important parts, and should be one of the most studied parts of the epics.

[Kevin Ballestrini]

Warren Nesteruk said:

Pardon my language, but the irony and the way he doesn't honorably include them in his excellence, is the proverbial bad ass. The fact that Odysseus does NOT approach them like noble opponents, that he does not want his defining glory from this struggle, only makes him that much more of a hero based on his previous trials. That was my take away, I will be happy to see if anyone else thinks this.

If he doesn't want to have this deed tied to his glory, then why spare the bard? After all, we have to assume that he spared the bard since that bard would be the one to then spread the story of "how Odysseus returned home and slew the suitors wasting his wealth." You are right on the money that Odysseus' aristeia is indeed conventional but it nevertheless falls into the category of being one.

Does any "grind" in a video game become an aristeia? What about spending hour after hour fruitlessly killing trash mobs looking for a rare drop? After you kill that trash mob who had the rare item drop on it does that monster then become the "boss fight" in retrospect and thus the end of the aristeia? Can you have an aristeia as a part of a group quest?

[Erika T]

I agree with Warren about the sarcasm in The Odyssey. I also love his analogy about wait till you hear about the rest of my day. Making the death of the suiters seem like such an unimportant and off-handed event works to add to the greatness of Odysseus. I also really liked his analogies

Warren Nesteruk said:

I am going to suggest that maybe Odysseus was being sarcastic when he makes the comment on basically not being secretive, because he feels the men are not deserving of his aristeia. It is his sucker punch of saying "Oh sure I am being SO upfront with these MIGHTY warriors, god give me strength!" ... before he slaughters them like cattle. I do not think Odysseus wants his excellence to be based upon the slaying of a bunch of mere suitors, so he does not approach them like they are worthy opponents. And then, Ironically (this word keeps popping up) the very fact that he is not willing to allow these men and their deaths to define him and his aristeia, actually makes him have ... greater excellence.

What im trying to say is this. Imagine if you were able to just say "Yeah ya know, I came home from a long day at work, and there were like 15 burglars in my house trying to get to my wife. I just killed them all and saved her. But it wasn't that big of a deal, you should have seen what I did earlier today!".

[Jackiea]

My experience, when first reading through the Iliad, was to be a little put off by all the gratuitous violence and bloodshed. It was at first a little thrilling, but with it's consistency throughout the epic became dull, monotonous, and obvious. After understanding a little more about aristeia, I understand perhaps the time and culture of the epics a little better through their usage of aristeias and thier significance to the viewer/reader, as an almost educational tool to learn through their repetition valuable lessons about how to be a skilled warrior, and about human ethics and values. The period of Homer was one in which battle was prominent and much value was placed on excellence in abttle, which is why this is such a recurring and repetitive theme in the epics.

[Jackiea]

"What im trying to say is this. Imagine if you were able to just say "Yeah ya know, I came home from a long day at work, and there were like 15 burglars in my house trying to get to my wife. I just killed them all and saved her. But it wasn't that big of a deal, you should have seen what I did earlier today!""

Haha, good analogy! That is how I understood the passage as well. I also agree that Odysseus' denying the glory for this feat adds to his glory. Not only does it infer to the viewer/reader than Odysseus is capable of much greater feats, and is also the perpetrator of much greater feats, but also that he has wisdom in his understanding of true valour, and that he has humility as well, all adding to an overall persona of mounting heroism. This is similar in the gaming sense to finishing a task in a game only to be told or to be made to understand that you have completed a trifling accomplishment, and now you must go on to something more challenging, thereby building you character up even more.

Warren Nesteruk said:

This second module really blew me out of the water so to speak, and this nice little package in "aristeia" is not little at all. I apologize now for the length of my post, but I really feel like I have a lot to say, both about the epic and our modern interpretation within video games.

The first thing that struck me about the concept of aristeia was how many times I had thought "this is getting so boring" while I read the Iliad my first time through, in regards to the repetitive killing and slayings. I mean, the generic formula was X killed Y and [insert gore here]. Over and over and over and over again. I never had an appreciation for this because I did not realize it as a necessity.

Now that I look back on it, all of the killing which leads up the the final culmination, whether that be the scenes of Diomedes, Patroclus/Hector, the rage of Achilles ... none of these scenes would have been nearly as entertaining if there was not some expense to get there. I know this is a random analogy, but every child at christmas would love to get their presents a week ahead of time, but the fact that they must wait that week makes the gifts that much better. I feel this is identical with the aristeia, and the necessity to build the character whether it be based on killing, a penguin catching catching coffe bags, etc ... makes the reward, the excellence, in the end, far more worthwhile. What good would it be to open a book and read "Achilles killed Hector" within the first chapter? Without the grinding of the Achaeans? How much of a hero would he be then? Excellence requires investment.

Of a particular interest to me was your counter aristeia when Odysseus slays the suitors. I completely agree with you that his secretive tactics are not in any way conventional to the mold that we understand, and I also agree with you that the suitors are far less powerful (and excellent) than the men dying to capture/defend Troy. I am going to suggest that maybe Odysseus was being sarcastic when he makes the comment on basically not being secretive, because he feels the men are not deserving of his aristeia. It is his sucker punch of saying "Oh sure I am being SO upfront with these MIGHTY warriors, god give me strength!" ... before he slaughters them like cattle. I do not think Odysseus wants his excellence to be based upon the slaying of a bunch of mere suitors, so he does not approach them like they are worthy opponents. And then, Ironically (this word keeps popping up) the very fact that he is not willing to allow these men and their deaths to define him and his aristeia, actually makes him have ... greater excellence.

What im trying to say is this. Imagine if you were able to just say "Yeah ya know, I came home from a long day at work, and there were like 15 burglars in my house trying to get to my wife. I just killed them all and saved her. But it wasn't that big of a deal, you should have seen what I did earlier today!"

Pardon my language, but the irony and the way he doesn't honorably include them in his excellence, is the proverbial bad ass. The fact that Odysseus does NOT approach them like noble opponents, that he does not want his defining glory from this struggle, only makes him that much more of a hero based on his previous trials. That was my take away, I will be happy to see if anyone else thinks this.

[Karen Zook]

I really enjoyed the module this week, but I have a couple of things I'd like further clarification on. Prof. Travis compares the directionless fighting of Homer with level-grinding--that makes good sense to me. I'm a little unclear, however, who it is in that analogy that's doing the "grinding." In the Club Penguin example, this is accomplished through a fun game; the player gains coins (or XP in other RPGs) to indicate their success.

When this is analogized to the battle books in Homer, however, I'm a little confused as to who is actually becoming successful. It appears that Patroclus' error was in trying to wear outsized armor before leveling up for it. So it is the characters who are achieving the experience, or is the bard achieving experience in relating a series of repetitive events (in the battle books), or is the audience, who achieve some kind of familiarity through being presented with this sort of background?

If Patroclus' error was in not recognizing the extent to which he was inexperienced--that is, until his death--then maybe the audience is the best analogy. By presenting so much directionless violence, it seems that the bard may simply have been providing context through which the heroes' aristea could distinguish itself. That is, it wasn't sufficient for the bard to simply say "there was lots of killing, then Diomedes was awesome" and trust the audience to understand what the sort of contrast would have entailed, it had to be shown through chronicling the daily conflict to the point of being tiresome.

My problem with this connection is that I haven't really seen the audience as the central element of epic composition/performance, and so I'd be much happier with a more direct analogue to the player/developer. Any thoughts on this?

[Kevin Ballestrini]

Karen Zook said:

My problem with this connection is that I haven't really seen the audience as the central element of epic composition/performance, and so I'd be much happier with a more direct analogue to the player/developer. Any thoughts on this?

Karen, it sounds like the missing "link" is the idea that the bardic occasion is not only an experience for the singer of tales, but also the audience. In the same way, the "grind" is an experience for the player of video games (who functions as -both- the audience and the singer of tales). Much like you pointed out above, if a bard simply said "Patroklos put on the armour of Achilleus and slew many Trojans before reaching Hektor..." then there is no experience for the audience. There is no feeling that Patroklos actually did anything worthy of kleos to get to that point. Likewise (and one has to look no further than the LotRo forums for an instant parallel) the game developer has to put in enough of an "experience" for the player to feel like their grind was for some tangible, attainable, and significant goal.

One specific example of this could be the Legendary Items that were installed with the latest expansion pack. There are some players who, after now 4 months, are very frustrated with being unable to find a worthwhile "2nd Age Item" (That is, the quality of the item increases with each earlier "age" that it is from.) Everyone 50 and above has readily access to 3rd Age legendary items... in Middle-Earth it is the 3rd age. There are some who feel that gaining access to a 2nd Age item should be easier, others say it is part of the grind and subsequently part of the experience. The aristeia of a character in game could be building up to that moment when they slay a certain monster and suddenly they realize that the monster was carrying a magnificent sword from the 2nd Age.

[Tom Fino]

Kevin Ballestrini said:

%3Cbr%20/"">Does any "grind" in a video game become an aristeia? What about spending hour after hour fruitlessly killing trash mobs looking for a rare drop? After you kill that trash mob who had the rare item drop on it does that monster then become the "boss fight" in retrospect and thus the end of the aristeia? Can you have an aristeia as a part of a group quest?

Kevin I think in this case you have to view your “fruitless” grind as the beginning, or perhaps even a prelude to your character’s aristeia. It seems to that in epic aristeia the focus is on one character. When you embark on a group quest and attain that rare item I think that the equipping of that item begins your real quest (aristeia). Whatever it is that you use that item for, to defeat a strong monster or achieve kleos in some way is the actual aristeia of your character, granted that it will involve some bloodshed on the road to that major battle for which you needed the item to be victorious. After all it seems as though the real intention of these descriptions in the epics is to glorify the heroism of extraordinary soldiers, to have an aristeia of your own I believe your in game character must achieve an extraordinary victory. Not to say that you cannot have an aristeia on a group quest but I think to classify it as such in the group battle your character would have to do something great that causes the rest of the characters to rally around yours and become victorious.

[Samantha Lee]

I am going to have to agree with Warren (o dear!) and say that the presentation of aristeia through the “battle books” of the Iliad blew me away. The obligatory guts and gore also bored me. It did, however, send me on a Wiki hunt trying to figure out if there were anymore stories about the slaughtered characters -for the most part, the answer was no. This leads me to believe Prof. Travis’ suggestion –the guts are there for the build up of the glory of the hero.

The haze the reader (and presumably the audience of the bard) experiences through the readings of the “battle books” mimics the confusion of battle. The confusion breaks when the moment of clarity arrives on the hero when he has his “boss dude battle.” It is a bizarre break and I am not sure what to do with the clarity other than to go along with what Prof. Travis has already said about the movement toward a question of values between a warrior and man. I have trouble believing that the ancient audience in their inebriated states would have been able to make the jump towards a question of values in those scenes. I imagine that they would have cheered on the bard for the blood and guts. Unless, the audience’ sobriety the next day revealed their daily tasks as a build up to their eventual aristeia.

Now, I wonder, if we were to look at our lives as moments leading to aristeia, what the backdrop would be and what the glory would be. The hours of endless studying and reading would be like “level grinding” – always working towards a higher GPA. Maybe, a moment of clarity offered through the domination of an exam and the subsequent “A.” Likewise, killing chickens are not very rewarding until you realize you gained a couple of levels and have chicken to eat to regain some life points…